Sense or sensibility?

    Hi all,

     

    I havent been involved with Qlikview since V9SR4 so I was quite excited to see the release of Qlik Sense and have taken a couple of hours just to familiarise myself.

     

    I'm loving the ease and visualisations with the map and treemap chart types. But the lack of pivot tables is a bit of a show stopper IMHO. The type of user who would really 'get' sense are those with fair Excel skills and pivot tables are one of their primary means of reviewing data once the pretty charts run out of depth - without it the question is why would they want to give up Excel (especially when combined with PowerPivot)?

     

    Take this for an example. We have workshop orders where costs/sales are made up of hours worked, parts, expenses, fees. I concatenated the source tables together with a 'Source' column which I would add as a secondary dimension in a pivot table. Without it, I would have to create distinct columns and use set analysis e.g. Sum({$<Source= {"Hours"}>} Cost) to populate them. My (Excel) users balk at that syntax and when I also want to show margins and contribution ratios plus totals it looks like a rats nest. Oh and there isnt any help on functions which is irritating. Also set analysis doesnt seem to work properly in that if I select Source=Items the values for the other elements don't go to 0.

     

    Ok - I understand that this is release 1 and that we can look forward to future developmemts (jam yesterday, jam tomorrow but never jam today ) but I wonder where its going.

     

    For the enterprise, does Sense make sense (pun intended)? View at the moment offers much more in terms of control/security and is there really a hunger for self-service in this environment? My users just want to define requirements and get someone else to deliver it while they get on with counting beans or whatever. I've always found that understanding the data and pulling it together can be the hardest bit and the presentation layer (arguably) easy (and easily changed).

     

    If this sounds like a downer on Sense its not meant to be - I hope someone can put me right! I can see it might have a place at the individual/small work group level (although Excel/PowerPivot is stuck in my head). But what about Qlikview now - will there be no more or limited development (for competing resources) until Sense matures? Where does that leave the enterprise in the meantime?

     

    Regards,

     

    Gordon


    Thank you Gordon, for putting it so nicely.


    Hi Gordon,

    I completely agree with You.

    Thanks.

    Regards,

    Antonio


    Well put Gordon.  I do agree with you, but would add from my perspective:

     

    - how long/far will qlik sense go before we (the enterprise) need it to replace qlikview ?

    - how do we even think about using both in the org (hardware,licences,etc) without duplication of resources/costs?

    - the more that is added to sense the more view will start to look inferior (aesthetically). Is this intended given orgs investment in view?

    michael


    Have you looked at the extension?

     

    But agree. I'm surprised that Qlik has not released a PT in QS or at least given a planned release date. Or even an indication of what their plans are

     

    I also think the straight table lets QS down quite badly. Otherwise it looks promising but for me tables are too important. I will stick to QV in the meantime

     

    But I hope Qlik does not neglect QV from now on. I still think its a great product


    Hi Gordon

     

    This is any interesting post.  We have just go through a similar review of Qlik s offering from a base of QlikView V9.

     

    In reviewing the new features in QlikView 11 we came across Qlik Sense in Beta.

     

    Qlik Sense solves the issue of Static UI and presents reports in a nice attractive responsive UI.  If you have a requirement to view reports on different viewports or embed reports into an existing application which is responsive this certainly ticks the box.

     

    Both products use the same underlying data model engine so performance wise QlikView and Qlik Sense will work the same.  Some of the features in View such as Section Access wasn't available in Qlik Sense but is coming.  What this means is it is very straight forward to take the model you have built in QlikView and migrate to Sense and let Users create their own reports.

     

    Another great thing about Qlik Sense is extensions.  The ability to create your own chart type beyond the list of pre defined charts is very powerful.  For example your concern about the lack of a Pivot table in Sense.  Someone has already written an extension to provide that functionality.  I'm sure Qlik will produce their own in time but in the mean time I think the idea is the Community will drive the take up of the product through the creation of their own extensions.

     

    Where Qlik are going with these 2 products only time will tell.  It is quiet frustrating at the moment to find out the level of detail decision makers need.  Whether that is due to the secretive nature of the launch or Qlik aren't sure in their own mind ill let you be the judge.

     

    IMO for users with a heavy existing investment in QlikView stick with QlikView.  Qlik will continue to develop releases and support for it in the short to med term and Qlik Sense is to raw to be considered ready for certain established environments.  Releases will come thick and fast over the course of the year I think as Issues get identified/fixed and new high demand features get added.

     

    If you are considering Qlik for the first time I'd look at Qlik Sense.  Its not a case of if but rather when some of the neat features in QlikView will come across to Qlik Sense then the call becomes one of aesthetics and usability which personally I like Qlik Sense.

     

    Regards

     

     

    Andy


    http://community.qlik.com/docs/DOC-7124

     

    This is the link to the pivot table extension


    Gordon,

    I have the same concerns.  There is a blog post from HIC (strangely without mentioning Sense by name) that addresses much of them.

     

    Regards,

    Michael

    PS: Love the title of your post.  I guess the next one will be "Pride or Prejudice"?


    Hi tresesco, Antonio,Michal,RJ,Andy,

     

    Thanks all for your comments - some excellent points.

     

    I did read about the pivot table extension but from a business perspective using something not part of the standard product is a bit of a no-no. I also read its top of the development list though.

    My main confusion is the product placement. We have QV which is a pretty mature and well regarded product. Now QS is the new kid on the block and QV will be perceived as a 'sunset' application. So until QS gains at least the same level of features/functionality as QV (e.g. Section Access) it would seem to me a brave person to recommend a business take up either - one is being superseded and the other not there yet.

     

    Lets hope Qlik get QS up to speed really quickly - seems to me QS was released too early (although I appreciate no software is ever 'ready') and may give their competitors an opportunity which will hurt us all.

     

    Just my opinion!

     

    Regards,

     

    Gordon


    I would have agreed a few years ago on the non standard product comment but nowadays its pretty common to extend the functionality of a device or application by using free or paid for apps/extensions I'm sure your iPhone/Android phone content is testimony to this approach.  The Libraries you use to build your visualisations can be established or cutting edge the choice I guess is yours and no different to extending the capabilities of QlikView through code.
     

    Your summary on where Qlik is at the moment with their products is a fair reflection of the dilemma existing and potential customers of Qlik face at the moment.  QlikView is established few if any bugs, fully featured verses Qlik Sense a tool with the potential to do all that and more but currently light on features and bugs to iron out.

     

    Depends on your timescales and issues with your current environment.  E.g. can you still do what you need to on V9? We couldn't so the safe bet for us at this time is QlikView 11.


    Hi Gordon,

     

    Sense is great to play with, but as you said there's a lot of development work gone into current Qlikview implementations and they've got a lot to do to convince developers to make the change (especially when they send out sales emails for Sense stating "NO DEVELOPER NEEDED!").

     

    It will be crucial that Qlik get enough Qlikview functions into Sense to enable us developers to see that it is worth swapping over, unless that is they want to continue running the products side by side indefinitely.

     

    flipside


    Hi Michael,

     

    My humble apologies to Jane Austen devotees everywhere

     

    I had thought to title it 'Sense and Senility' as a homage to the British comedy series 'Blackadder' but wasnt sure if that would travel!

     

    Regards,

     

    Gordon


    Hello Gordon, Long time no see!

     

    Indeed, many things have happened here at Qlik, and I really appreciate your feedback. However, there are some points that I miss here, and I'll try to summarize.

     

    The basic premise is that QlikView and Qlik Sense are two different products with different audiences, and probably we all know QlikView and Qlik as a company so well that it's kind of hard to digest that (indeed, our email addresses have moved from @qlikview.com to @qlik.com).

     

    Qlik Sense uses QIX, the evolution of the associative, in memory core engine we all know in QlikView, and QlikView 12 will use it as well. Qlik Sense relies on web sockets and QlikView uses Ajax. Development in QlikView is by means of a development tool whereas Qlik Sense is server side development (but you can use Qlik Sense Desktop). They are two different products. It's not the idea that you have to move from one to the other. There will be additions in features and functionality in QlikView (I can tell you that 11.20 SR9 is now beta) and there will be for Qlik Sense as well.

     

    That said, although scripts from QlikView will just run fine in Qlik Sense, as well as the expressions do, there are cases (or maybe bugs) where that is not the result: support@qlik.com is always the way to go.

     

    Section access is in Qlik Sense but does not work (on purpose) in Qlik Sense Desktop. Note that Qlik Sense has security rules that can be applied to apps, streams, nodes, proxies, users... It has its own syntax and all of that is handled and managed from the QMC (standing for Qlik Management Console not the v9 QlikView Enterprise Management Console).

     

    And there is help indeed, online and PDFs you can download: https://help.qlik.com/en-US/index.html (PDFs in the Downloadable Guides in the left menu, at the bottom). If you don't find some functions or miss some contents, let us know!

     

    There is no pivot table in the GA of the product you can install today, that's true. We all want that feature to be available there ASAP, but I'm not in the Product organization and I guess that there is a reason for that. The extension is a workaround, but not the solution, I agree.

     

    As for the enterprise readiness well, check the security rules, the QMC, the concepts of nodes and sites (not clusters), syncing tasks, the Qlik Deployment Console... Feel free to contact me directly by email to get more detailed info. QlikView works in the enterprise and that is a reality (you know that first hand). And Qlik Sense is ready to work in the enterprise as well. Which one you should go with? Which needs your users have to cover? Which one will best integrate with your LDAP security? We must discuss that and get an accurate answer, but the answer can be Qlik Sense, QlikView or both!

     

    Hope all the above makes some sense -and again, feel free to reach me out by email. I'd also recommend you, if you want to get closer information about the product to attend the Visualize Your World event in UK.

     

    Miguel

     

    P.S.: Although I really enjoy British humour ("A Bit Of Fry And Laurie" (full CD collection) or "Some Mothers Do Have 'Em" (also both seasons in CD) and "The IT Crowd" -that's another story), I wouldn't have got the "Sense and Senility"!


    Now QS is the new kid on the block and QV will be perceived as a 'sunset' application.

     

    That's inevitable I guess. Its a shame though


    Thanks Miguel - your response to Gordon definitely helped me understand where QlikSense is being positioned.

     

    Now the big question I have is when will we hear about Qlikview 12? 

     

    Michael


    Hi Miguel!

     

    Thanks for taking the time and posting such a comprehensive response.

     

    I think I'm clearer now on where to position the two products.

     

    As I see it, there is within a business just one audience but two levels of demand - the first happy to be fed information in a pre-packaged format and the other that wants it on demand in a format of their choosing.

     

    The 'on demand' usually comes from the need for tactical information where the usual providers (normally IT) simply cannot service that demand in a timely manner. However, users often already have the ability to do this using e.g. Excel/PowerPivot that they are familiar with and a de-facto corporate standard application.

     

    So is it a different market that QS is designed to appeal to? Thats fine although I worry that the result will be a dilution of development for QV/QS/both. But thats probably unfair of me to make assumptions.

     

    I look forward to a day when a single product combines the benefits of both - that would be a wow.

     

    Quite clearly an enormous amount of effort has been made to get Sense v1.0 where it is - its been done well and I'm impressed. But its not ready and the job of selling QV just got a whole lot harder.

     

    Reagrds,

     

    Gordon


    Great answer Miguel A.  All this time I thanked that Sense was the part that Qlik needed to satisfied our powerusers.

    I prefer to forget Sense for a while.  It's not easy for a small organization to have to implementation of the same product.

     

    Thanks to Gordon for this post that give us (or generate) the light we needed...

     

    Regards.


    Gordon,

     

    You said it spot on! Users with a need of visualisation (of information that can be already prepared by IT in the form of libraries to connect to databases with different levels of users and permissions, only-user produced excel spreadsheets as well, or QVDs) are the audience of Qlik Sense. That's why we call it a "Governed Self-Service Visualization Tool". Apart from the analysts perspective (that I don't feel able to discuss), it is proven easier for a user to create their own visualizations from scratch with Qlik Sense.

     

    Does that mean that there is no longer need for "QlikView developers"? Nothing farther! We are aiming to sensibly improve the smart, drag-and-drop data loading, but still you will have a script where developers can do whatever is required to get the data straight to be consumed. Plus, with the 9 full documented APIs (Engine, Repository, Client, etc.) drive integration with other systems or web portals to a different level, and that will require developers too.

     

    So the user needs nothing to start using Qlik Sense or Qlik Sense Desktop if they don't have the full Qlik Sense in place. You can even get the whole data and model from an existing QVW just dragging and dropping, and you are good to go to start your visualisations. Therefore users don't require any special technical skill to start creating visualisations.

     

    Yet again, yes it is version 1.0. I expect much more for next releases!

     

    However, you have those other cases where objects are conditional, there is a menu, buttons that perform several actions, document chaining... a "guided analytic app" that developers have built almost in its entirety (or at least, people with more technical knowledge is required to start), although users are still able to create and share their own objects and sheets in the enhanced QlikView 11.20 Ajax client using the repository of existing objects, copying and pasting and modifying them. This is the traditional QlikView environment of we know plenty of cases.

     

    Where we will be in the future? I don't know to be honest. I still see two clear cases there: until now we had QlikView and we tried to answer everything (loading and visualising) with QlikView, now with Qlik Sense we have two, not to mention the Qlik Cloud as part of the Qlik Sense offering, currently in beta.

     

    Glad to see you back!

     

    Miguel


    Hi Miguel,

     

    An excellent follow up to your earlier post - I've got a lot out of this thread and I hope others have too.

     

    I'll close it down now.

     

    Can't wait for the future developments!

     

    Regards,

     

    Gordon



    This document was generated from the following discussion: Sense or sensibility?